What can ancient monastic wisdom teach today’s Catholic leaders about hospitality, listening, prayer, and hope? In this episode of the Catholic Leaders Podcast, Kerry Alys Robinson and Kim Smolik welcome Abbot Gregory Polan, O.S.B., for a conversation that feels like a “mini-retreat” on the spiritual foundations of leadership. Abbot Gregory reflects on his Benedictine vocation, the ongoing call to conversion, and the transformative power of prayer and listening. He shares how the Benedictine charism of hospitality — welcoming every person as if he or she were Christ — recognizes human dignity and provides a powerful way to encounter others. The conversation also explores how memorizing and praying the Psalms, “the heartbeat of the Bible,” has shaped Abbot Gregory’s life and his perspective on the world and the church. Abbot Gregory shares lessons he learned from his years of leading the Benedictine Confederation in Rome and working with Pope Francis. He offers practical wisdom for leaders: cultivate sources of life-giving renewal so that you can face difficult responsibilities with greater strength and freedom.
For centuries, Benedictine monasteries have served as places of prayer, hospitality, and learning. But the wisdom of Benedictine life is not reserved for those living in monastic communities. Anyone seeking to lead with greater purpose, attentiveness, and compassion can learn from the Benedictines’ balanced and practical approach to life.
Abbot Gregory Polan, who has served as Abbot of Conception Abbey in Missouri, as well as Abbot Primate of the Benedictine Confederation, invites listeners to consider what the Benedictine principles of stability, conversion of life, silence, hospitality, and prayer might look like in their own lives and leadership.
The conversation also turns to the Psalms and how praying and studying the Psalms has provided Abbot Gregory a deep point of connection with God, with himself, his friends, and the world around him in a way that transcends time.
Join hosts Kim Smolik and Kerry Alys Robinson for this “mini-retreat” with Abbot Gregory as they soak up his wisdom on “the language of the heart.”
Special Spotlight: This episode also highlights Executive Director of Catholic Charities of Southwest Louisiana, Sister Marie Josepha Kluczny, RSM, as she connects Benedictine hospitality with her order's charism of mercy and shares how serving clients’ needs — both temporal and spiritual — is at the heart of the work of Catholic Charities.
Abbot Gregory J. Polan served as the Abbot Primate of the Benedictine Confederation (2016 – 2024) which is headquartered at the Primatial Abbey of Sant’Anselmo in Rome. Before being elected Abbot Primate, he was a monk of Immaculate Conception Abbey in northwest Missouri, in the United States. There he served his community as Rector of their seminary from 1985-1987. He then served as Abbot of His community from 1996-2016 when elected to his position as Abbot Primate. One of his most important works was the main translator of the Abbey Psalms and Canticles which has been accepted for use in the forthcoming renewal of the Liturgy of the Hours and the Lectionary. He has served three terms as a theological consultant to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Secretariat on Divine Worship. He has written numerous articles on biblical and liturgical subjects, and has preached numerous retreats to Benedictine communities of men and women..
Education: B.A. and M.A. from St. John's School of Theology | Ph.D. in Sacred Scripture from Saint Paul University in Ottawa, Canada
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Executive Director of Catholic Charities of Southwest Louisiana
Sister Marie Josepha was born and raised in Southern Minnesota. At nine years old, she made a promise to God to become a religious sister. Even at a young age, this promise gave an internal peace she still remembers. She worked as an RN in Rochester, Minnesota, for several years before entering religious life with the Religious Sisters of Mercy of Alma, Michigan, in 2012. Sister Marie Josepha has worked in several capacities as a Sister, including in hospitality, in bioethics and Catholic identity for a Catholic health system, and completing a Master's Degree in Nursing to become a Certified Nurse Midwife in 2019. Sister has served as the Executive Director of Catholic Charities of Southwest Louisiana since 2023, which has opened her eyes to the manifold ways God cares for His people in mercy.
Education: B.A. in Biology from Saint Mary's University of Minnesota | B.S.N. from Creighton University
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Kerry Alys Robinson (KAR)
Kim, it is always a joy to be with you, and what a luxury we had the chance to have lunch together in Washington, D.C., when you were newly back from your pilgrimage in Europe. Tell us how that was.
Kim Smolik (KS)
I was very blessed to have the opportunity to visit some of the holy sites of the women saints that I have been spending the last year of my life painting and praying alongside and reading their work. So I visited Catherine of Siena in Siena, Italy. I visited Julian of Norwich in England, and I also walked a rare Camino path, from Sevilla, Spain to Santiago, which was sort of a capstone to my project.
And so I had the gift of time and had the chance to, to give thanks and celebrate the journey I've been on for the last year or so.
KAR
It's so wonderful. I wish with all my heart that I could have accompanied you on that pilgrimage, but this is really a perfect prelude to talking about our next guest, Abbot Gregory. When he was speaking to us about the charisms that his order lives out and the virtue of hospitality and different forms of living out his life and his vocation as prayer, it really struck me that in this day that is so frenetic, with so many competing claims for our time and attention, I am finding my colleagues across the Catholic Charities family to be dearly in need of care for the soul, and we have really been struck by how important it is when we gather for any purpose to include intentional ways of praying, to include opportunities for silence. A care of the soul just really struck me as urgently needing attention in this moment, and I was so grateful for Abbot Gregory's words.
KS
Abbot Gregory really gave us the opportunity to feel cared for, didn't he, Kerry, in this episode where we — it feels like we were on retreat with him. He really brought forward a prayerful atmosphere and I appreciated, as now that I've been living alongside a Benedictine monastery for the last two years and have come to deeply appreciate the values that they live out of deep listening and hospitality, which he displayed in this episode. It makes me really think about exactly what you're saying. Kerry. We have the opportunity, even though we're not monastic, and we're not living that life, to offer hospitality and listening to each other in small and large encounters. And what a blessing that you're putting that focus at Catholic Charities each time that you're meeting with your colleagues across the country.
KAR
Yes. And, you know, I, I realize our listeners, like myself, did not have the opportunity to accompany you on your pilgrimage, but maybe we can invite them to consider this conversation with Abbot Gregory as a chance, for just a brief window, to be on retreat.
KS
Abbot Gregory Polan led the Benedictine Confederation from 2016 to 2024, serving as the Abbott Primate at the Abbey of Saint Anselmo in Rome.
Before being elected Abbott Primate, he served for 20 years as Abbot for Immaculate Conception Abbey in Northwest Missouri.
One of his most important works was the translation of the Abbey Psalms and Canticles, which has been accepted for use in the forthcoming renewal of the Liturgy of the Hours and the Lectionary.
He has served three times as the theological consultant to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops Secretariat on Divine Worship.
KAR
Abbott Gregory, it is such a joy to welcome you to the Catholic Leaders Podcast. I think our listeners are particularly intrigued to learn more about monastic life. Maybe we could just begin by asking you what drew you to monastic life, and how is that different than priesthood?
Abbot Gregory Polan, O.S.B (AGP)
Well, for myself, one of the things that was very important was the idea of community life.
It's an interesting story because I had been in the archdiocesan seminary for Chicago and had been very, very involved in everything from basketball to the French club and everything in between. And I really came to a sense of how important community was to me. When I came to the college seminary, they gave us a new mantra: learn to burn with your own oil because you're going to be alone in a parish someday. And it's just very important that you realize that now and start planning.
Well, that was really a very important insight and a time for me to discern. You know, I was an 18 year old, but I knew that I wanted to live in community, and, I have just found that community has meant so much to me because working closely with people, working on a common say, for example, an apostolate with other Benedictine monks — this was really a very enriching and important decision for me.
KS
That's really a great beginning and I’d like to dig into some of these topics around monastic life and community. Could you give us just a little bit more around, for someone who's never stepped inside a monastery, what are some things that might be misunderstood about monastic life that you would like to share with us?
AGP
Sure. Well, one of the things, you say, first of all, as a Benedictine, it's important to know that, different from other religious orders and congregations, we take different vows. When the most religious are known to take the values of poverty, chastity, and obedience, the vows we take are obedience, stability, and conversion of life. And that element of stability is very important.
I was born in Chicago, and within a 100-mile radius of my home, there were four Benedictine monasteries. And yet none of them really appealed to me. I was fortunate in having a high school classmate who had moved to Oklahoma, and I had written to him about, you know, looking for a Benedictine monastery. And he said, well, you know, the Archdiocese of Oklahoma sends their seminarians here to Conception Abbey.
And it is a community that's very alive, doing great things, with a wonderful spirit among everyone. And he said, come for a visit. I did, and I fell in love with the community immediately. And so, there was really a sense there that I had found a home, though I want to emphasize too, I come from a very happy home!
So it wasn't as though I was running away from something, but I was moving toward something as a young adult and, you know, we Benedictines as such, we do not have specifically, a work that we do. You can visit Benedictine monasteries and see a variety of different things they do. Here at Conception Abbey, we have a Seminary College, we have a strong guest and hospitality program, and for many years we've had a printery operation, kind of, known as Conception Abbey Press. Now it's taken on a new name to be a bit more domestic, oriented toward the family, and it's called Altar and Home.
Amid that, we also do a small bit of parish work in the area around our monastery, and we also serve as chaplains to communities of Benedictine sisters.
I had the opportunity to do my theological studies at Saint John's in Collegeville, which is a very well known and a great abbey. Interestingly enough, they really prospered my interest in biblical studies, and I taught for them in Israel three different times and that was a great experience.
KS
Well, of course, that is how I met you, Abbot Gregory, was your visit to the Collegeville Institute at Saint John's Abbey and University last year and what a blessing that was for me. I think we'll get into that a little bit more, but I don't want to lose the opportunity to open up two of the vows that you mentioned that we don't hear about as often in mainstream Catholicism, which is stability and conversion of life.
Could you talk to us a little bit about what those mean? And what they might also mean for your everyday Catholic? Because they're important, not just for the monastery, but they're also important for our faith.
AGP
Yes. Well, as I mentioned to you, you know, I did not have the strong feeling of being at home when I visited these other monasteries.
But, you know, I knew that it was going to be important because of the stability, because I would basically be spending the rest of my life in relation to the community that I joined. And, so that becomes an important element in choosing the community to which you belong. And it's the people that you see and get to know.
It's the spirit of the house. It's the work that they do and the work that you would be doing together. Those are all elements of the stability which mark and distinguish Benedictine life and Benedictine monasticism.
The other thing that I mentioned, which is called conversion of life — it’s a basic idea that we enter the monastery with the ongoing understanding that we are a people who are in constant conversion of our life — changing, growing, hopefully, and, becoming new people in the best sense of what a conversion is all about.
And that's something that Benedict speaks about. You know, it's a wonderful thing for us particularly to speak about. In the year 2029 coming up, we will be celebrating the 1,500th year of the writing of the Rule of Saint Benedict. You know, it was one of the first rules that came out for religious life. And, we still hold to that. We read a short section of the Rule every evening at the evening meal.
But, you know, another element of, of monastic life, too, as Benedictines is, monasticism itself comes from the word monos, meaning alone or one. And with that idea, we really focus on the importance and the significance of, of knowing that, we do live this life alone, and yet we live in community.
So, those are kind of two elements, but, one of the elements that, really touches our life, too, is how Benedict talks about the importance of silence in our life. And, it's it's not, a kind of heavy thing that, that you feel you've got someone holding a stick over you, but, you know, it's the kind of thing that, well, and I would say this too — a lot of people who enter Benedictine monasticism are introverts. They, they often, though we love community. We also treasure our time alone.
And we have the practice, which goes back centuries, of having reading while we're eating. So the idea is, you're getting new ideas, all kinds of things, coming to you in the midst of this. And the whole community is being formed and educated by the means of these readings too. Although I will say this too — on Saturday and Sunday, we have a break from that and we talk at our meals.
KAR
I am curious about the quality and gift of hospitality that I associate with Benedictines. My grandparents were, I would say, their cardinal virtue was hospitality. They had 14 children, seven of whom were adopted, three with special needs. And whenever one of their children turned 16, they would invite into their home for a full year, a child, another 16-year old from somewhere else in the world.
It was a veritable United Nations. And they were regularly welcoming priests and sisters from around the world to stay with them. And growing up as a grandchild in this, I just was struck by this quality of hospitality. Can you speak a little bit to that virtue?
AGP
Well, it is a very important charism, for our community, because Benedict says that everyone who comes to the monastery is to be received as if that person were Christ.
So that that puts, a heavy responsibility on all of us who live in the monastery because, you know, here we're on a campus of 900 acres, and all kinds of people are coming all the time, and you'll run into people and you, you you want to make them feel welcome, and you just simply ask, are you being cared for? Is there anything I can do for you?
But it's just that spirit and, something I would also say along those same lines is that, I think welcoming people with a smile on your face makes all the difference in the world. And making them feel welcomed and making them feel at home. And, you know, I came from a family where hospitality was also very much part of the way that my parents lived and welcomed people.
My background is Slavic. All of my grandparents came from the area that was, at that time, Czechoslovakia. And so all of my ancestors are Czech. And there is a kind of Slavic hospitality, too, that I grew up with. So it was very easy for me to just take this in, love doing it, and being part of it.
When I was Abbot, here at Conception for 20 years, every Sunday morning, it was a happy ritual — and I emphasize a happy ritual — that I would go down to the guest department and introduce myself and welcome all of the people that were there, so that that's kind of the way that it works. And one of the things too that we recently found within the years of I was Abbot was that we wanted to expand our guest facilities. And so we built a beautiful new guest house.
And right now in, having built a new seminary building, we are turning some of the other seminary buildings into more hospitality. And, so we're really updating a lot and making them, more welcoming, I think, for the people who come to us.
KS
I really hear the connection between hospitality and human dignity in what you just shared.
AGP
Yes. You know, to to be able to, to simply meet people with a smile puts them at ease. And it, it it opens you also to meeting them and seeing what you can do for them. What would be helpful for them and, what needs might they have? You know, one of the other things that I, that I would say that, really is so very important with regard to, to this too, is, the importance of listening.
And when people come, to listen to them in a way that you really, give your attention to them. And, another thing that I've just found over my years is the importance of being able to listen and remember people's names. That gives people a dignity that you remember who they are, as distinct from many other people.
KAR
I was just recounting to a friend yesterday that my closest priest friend, Father Bob Beloin, would start his day, every day putting different denominations in his various pockets. Bills, five, $5, $10, $1. And he was, he would arm himself that way and he would venture out into the city knowing invariably he would be asked for money.
And I witnessed that he would always stop and reach into his pocket and, and pull out whatever bill it was handed to the supplicant. But in doing so, he would smile broadly and he would say, what's your name? And the person was so astonished to be asked such an intimate and yet simple question, and would always look up into his eyes, almost with tears in their eyes, tell that — tell him what their name was, and then he would beam more broadly and say, I'm Bob.
And it was just that the dignity that was restored there and that that human human contact because so often, we are passing people like that by, refusing to even look at them, almost avoiding them. So this is a beautiful thing that you have just reminded me of.
AGP
Well, you know, with regard to your friend, Father Bob, I'd like to comment on that, when I was, in Rome for eight years, serving as abbot primate of the Benedictine Confederation, I began to see the significant amount of homelessness that was there. And that, particularly during the time of the pandemic, when I was there.
And, so I always kept some euros in my pocket also to be able to, to give someone, with a smile. But I will tell you also, of one funny experience, but it, at first it surprised me, but then I thought Gregory, just give, it was raining and there was a woman there, and I could tell that she needed some help.
And so I offered her €2, and she looked at me, and she threw the euros back at me and said, I know you have more than you can give me than that. And she walked off. It was really a surprise to me, but it opened my eyes to the realization of how many people are in need, and can we ever really meet the needs that they have?
KS
What that experience ties for me to your comment about listening, because there are many ways that we are called to listen. And I think as — I imagine — as a Benedictine who’s lived your life in this posture that there are many ways that you've learned to listen, to listen to other people, to listen to the Psalms, to listen to your brothers, to listen to God.
And I just love to hear a little bit about the role of listening in your life.
AGP
Well, you know, there's a variety of ways that, that I've learned how to listen. You know, I have listened as an abbot and, you know, that's very distinctive because the notion of an abbot, you might think, you know, he's the CEO of this monastery.
But according to Benedict, no. He is to be the spiritual father of the community. And so that ability to be able to listen to one of your monks as a son or, in, in the context of, of a retreat or something like that, that you would listen to, to a woman who is speaking to you too, as a, as a spiritual daughter.
So I think that becomes an important thing. Also, you know, as a teacher, I'm a profe— I've been a professor — I teach scripture in our seminary. And, there are so many times when students are either discouraged or trying to find answers for things, and it's just so important to be quiet and to listen to them and to try and understand what they're asking and not immediately to jump in with answers.
Let them talk, let them express themselves. And that can be so important for opening an avenue to be able to give a person a sense that they've been heard. And, and then you can talk to them.
KS
Well, you certainly did that for me when you visited the Collegeville Institute. I remember very well what an incredible listener you are. So, I know that it's in practice, and it is such a core leadership skill, and I think it's something we can't think about or practice enough, really. I want to talk a little bit about your life with the Psalms.
You have been teaching them, translating them, praying them daily for most of your life. I read, and I love this, and it stayed with me, that you called them the heartbeat of the Bible. That is such a beautiful image. And the reminder that Jesus himself prayed the Psalms.
AGP
Yes.
KS
And when you were at the Collegeville Institute, you were working on a project that was exploring the question of violence in the Psalms and what we do with those hard texts in the Psalms and in communal prayer.
And I'm still here, and I continue to go to prayer at the monastery. And it's been an important practice for me, especially the morning prayer. And, and we recently, a week or so ago it was now, we were praying Psalm 122, and I don't need to repeat it for you, but for everyone else, it it's, has the line, pray for the peace of Jerusalem and when that was said immediately in my mind, I heard, pray for the peace of Minneapolis, where I am here in Minnesota.
It was so immediate. Pray for the peace of Minneapolis. May peace be within your walls. And I started to cry. And then came this line about peace in the palaces and praying for peace in the palaces. And I will tell you, Abbot Gregory. I got angry, right? Anger rose in me, and I was struck by the call to pray for people that I wasn't ready to pray for. But the Psalms held me in that prayer, and carried me, carried me through.
And so I'd like to hear, you know, a talk a little bit about the role the Psalms play in your life, the role they play in our lives of faith, and what do we do when the Psalms confront us in this way? And what role are they meant to play? That's a lot of questions, but I've been really thinking about it.
AGP
Yes. Well, you know, I can begin by talking about the fact that, when I first entered the monastery, one of my teachers gave me the challenge: Memorize the whole Psalter, which I did. It took me a couple of years. But on the other hand, it has been one of the most influential things in my life, because I've learned to be able to, to read the Psalms, to find myself, to find our world, to find my friends, to find Jesus, in the context of his life and the gospels.
And interestingly enough, in the Gospels, the Psalms are the most quoted of Old Testament writings. Your point is so well taken when it comes to someone like, something like Psalm 122, I would I would also say, for example, I look forward to when we pray Psalm 74 and that talks about the destruction of Jerusalem.
And what that does is, it draws me into prayer for all of those people in Gaza and in the Ukraine who have had their churches and their homes leveled and burned. And so what the Psalms are really intended also to be able to do, because, you know, they're not our prayers, they’re prayers of another age, but they are intended to inspire us to pray.
And it's very interesting too, in the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours, they distinguish between reciting psalms and praying from the Psalms, two very distinct things. And so when we're in choir and praying these Psalms in community, it's enlivening within us prayer for others, prayer for oneself, finding one's selves, finding one's dark areas of their life, and realizing the need for conversion and change and all of that.
So, I say to people because sometimes people will say, oh, I just can't pray them. They don't speak to me. They're from another ear and another language. And I say, you haven't given them the chance because they are, they are a wealth of language of the heart. And, they would — the Psalms would teach you, teach you about yourself, about the world, about the church. So many things.
KAR
Those of us who are not in monasteries or in cloisters, I don't think we think often enough about what a gift to the world it is to have communities committed to praying for the world. You know, every day, praying for the world. We, we tend to be in it and completely frustrated. What is on your heart these days as you are praying for the world?
AGP
I am so taken by the scenes that I see. For example, I'm a regular watcher of PBS NewsHour. And it's so important because what it does is, it immerses me into the world and to the world that I want to pray for and remember. And, and then just a variety of, of different things and people who, you know, people write to us, they call us on the phone and they ask us to remember this or that intention or this difficulty that they're going through at this time in their life.
So we have on our monastery bulletin board, these lists of people calling in and writing. So, you know, monasteries really are, are places for the world. You know, people sometimes think that, you know, we're locking ourselves away and really not a part of the world, but we're very much a part of the world, and given to the world and alert to so many things that are going on in our world.
KS
I think last year you gave an address in Rome, maybe before you left. It was to your brother abbots. Is that correct?
AGP
Yeah.
KS
Yeah, I had a chance to read it. It's beautiful. And you spoke about total dependence on God, and we hear about that in our faith, about relying on God, giving things over to God.
But sometimes it's hard to understand what that can mean to release control. And also, I think, what it gives us in our life, right? And you spoke about inner freedom in relationship to total dependence on God. How are these two things connected?
AGP
Well, you know, I think the point that you make is something that only comes with time. You have to be able to build up a sense of, see within your life how God has acted, how God has been there at particular times, and for particular reasons. And that becomes a moment when you just keep growing in the sense of how much God is in your life and you find, the, the, the importance of surrendering in so many ways and discovering that the end result of that is something that's very blessed.
AGP
I would just emphasize again that fact of being able to see how more and more that you do this, are you able to let go, and it gives you an inner freedom to be able to see that, in the mystery of our lives, God is at work. And these things that come to us — sometimes surprising, sometimes painful, sometimes glorious and joyful — they come from God, with God, into our lives. And your own belief in that gives you that inner freedom to be able to to realize that your life is governed by something more than yourself.
Sometimes in our lives we come to a realization about something and it may not be necessarily an easy decision or a fulfilling decision, but we know it's right and we have an inner freedom to proceed with it and know that it's there for a reason and it's the right way to go.
KAR
I know that you were friends with and worked with Pope Francis. And we are big fans of Pope Francis. And our guests have been big fans of Pope Francis. Could you tell us one of your favorite Pope Francis stories?
AGP
Sure. Be happy to. You know, when I first went to Rome, I had only had a smattering of Italian, but, you know, as abbot primate, I had to go and meet him and introduce myself.
So I came with a piece of paper, and I read it to him so that he would understand. He just did not understand English. But, you know, he never forgot that. He never forgot that. And one time I had given a talk in Italian and, you know, after you do this, in fact it was a whole group of faculty and university people.
And, you go up and you shake his hand, and then he goes into his, his talk of whatever he's going to say. But he went and he said, now, wasn't that good Italian? So, you know, this was years later, but he never forgot that. And, and there's another good and it's a funny story too, every year he, he would come to Saint Anselmo for Ash Wednesday.
And I would go out and meet him and, you know, the photographers from the Vatican and everything would be taking photos. And there's this very warm picture of him, taking hold of my hand and looking at me with a smile. But what he's telling me is, I want you to clean up a mess for me.
KS
Oh, no — in a moment you weren't allowed to react, that’s perfect.
AGP
Yeah. But, it was one of those things that I've always laughed. And I've kept that picture. Yeah. And, he was wonderful to work with. I would say that I probably had about six one-on-ones with him in my years there, and that was always very wonderful.
He, you know, he he has a beautiful way to talk about hospitality and welcome. He has a beautiful way. He had a beautiful way of being able to do that.
KS
As you know, this is a Catholic Leader's podcast. So I have to ask, what what did you observe or learn for yourself about leadership in getting to be in Rome, close to Pope Francis, and his leadership of our church.
AGP
You know, as I saw Francis Pope Francis working, he always faced the situations that he had to deal with. And that became a way for me. And I found that you can really do that very successfully with kindness and honesty, and those two elements, can, can come together very well.
Now, let me say another thing about administrative work and leaders. Administration was not my favorite thing, and I got moved into it because people saw that I could do it, and they wanted me to do it. And I spent a lot of years in administration, and it was not my choice. But what I think enabled me to do it, was to be able to find something that was life-giving outside of that, and it enabled you to do the more difficult things.
I'll give you an example for, you know, for me, the love of the scriptures and studying the scriptures in that, was always life-giving. On my day off, I would go to the Biblicum Library and hide myself, and I was working on a project to write a book. I had been asked by Paulist Press to write a book.
And so what I did was I spent that day doing something that was really life-giving for me, and I knew it was going to be of service to others. And then I'd cut out Saturday morning and write up what I did, you know, on Thursday at the Biblicum. So I would say to other leaders, be sure you have other things that are life-giving for you because they will enable you to face head-on the more difficult things that you have to do.
KS
This is some very rich wisdom for leaders. I'm also curious about what you would say Saint Benedict and and the Rule of Saint Benedict has for the modern leader who's not necessarily inside the church and is facing a world where there's a lot of urgency and fast-paced life and decisionmaking and the Rule, what does it have to offer for those leaders?
AGP
Well, you know, it's really interesting. As I mentioned to you, the rule is 1,500 years old. Chapter three is really an outline of synodality. There was a meeting before the whole process began, and I was asked to give a presentation on what is there in Benedictine life that could be close to this idea of synodality?
There was a Franciscan also, and then a Cambodian missionary. Well, as soon as I talked about chapter three of The Rule of Benedict and how he talks about bringing all the brothers together when there's a decision that has to be made, and he says there, and be sure that you always include the youngest, because they often have a vision that others don't have.
And then he pointed to the scriptures and talked about young Samuel and how he had insight that others didn't have. So isn't that interesting that 1,500 years ago, this idea of synodality was already in the Rule of Saint Benedict?
KAR
Amazing. Abbot Gregory, what an amazing conversation this has been. I feel as though I've been on a mini-retreat. It's been meditative and incredibly soothing too. What a blessing to have this this time in your company. We always end our conversations by asking the same question to each of our guests. And we would like to conclude by asking you this question: apart from Pope Francis, whom you have referenced, who is one leader, whom you have drawn inspiration from and emulated in your own life?
AGP
One person that I can think of right off the top of the bat is Cardinal Joseph Bernardin. I had the chance to meet him on two different occasions. And both of those times were moments when I was in a crowd of probably 2 to 300 people. But when he was talking to me, it was as if I was the only person in that room.
And he had such a tremendous presence of care and concern and wanting to get to know you and to meet you. I've never forgotten that. And so, he has and always has been, a model for me after I admired him even before I met him. But then when I met him, all that did was cemented into my mind, in my heart.
KS
Well, we are so grateful for the ways that you, emulate him in your life and your leadership and and what you've shared with us today. Thank you so much for being with us.
AGP
Well, thank you for inviting me. And thank you for having me as your guest.
KAR
Today we are spotlighting Catholic Charities of Southwest Louisiana and its executive director, Sister Marie Josepha Kluczny. A Religious Sister of Mercy of Alma, Michigan, Sister Marie Josepha has led the agency since September 2023, bringing her order’s charism of mercy and her experience in nursing, bioethics, and Catholic identity to serve those in need in the Diocese of Lake Charles, Louisiana.
Sister Marie Josepha, it is so wonderful to see you. Thank you for being on the Catholic Leaders podcast.
Sister Marie Josepha Kluczny, RSM (SMJK)
Thank you so much for having me, Kerry.
KAR
Abbot Gregory Polan spoke in this episode about hospitality, the special charism of the Benedictine Order.
He said that everyone who comes to the monastery is to be received as if that person were Christ. The charism for your order is mercy. To me, these are related in a meaningful way and relate beautifully to the mission of Catholic Charities. Can you speak about how this charism animates your work and in turn, Catholic Charities of Southwest Louisiana?
SMJK
Absolutely. So, mercy as Saint Thomas Aquinas kind of defines it, is this like heartfelt compassion for the misery of another person. It's like, a sorrow at heart for the misery of the other person and seeing that person’s suffering as your own.
But to me, it has always struck me that when you look at the church as a whole, that it's really like every part of the church's ministry is about bringing people to Christ. So Catholic health care and Catholic education and Catholic social services, it's not just about getting someone into housing or educating their mind.
It's about how the experience gives them an experience of God's love and mercy that draws them closer to him, that makes them more aware of his providential love and his tenderness for them and all of their needs. And so, it's just so intimately linked to the work that we do at Catholic Charities, this charism of mercy.
We often think of, like works of mercy as the corporal works of mercy — sheltering the homeless and feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. And those are absolutely important. And they're part of the work that we do.
But I think it's also to not forget about the spiritual works of mercy, about consoling the sorrowful and counseling the doubtful and praying for the living and deceased. Like, it just kind of lifts my heart when I overhear, you know, our receptionist on the phone with someone and just patiently hearing their sorrows.
And then at the end of the call, whether we can help them with whatever they intended to call for, just saying, you know, I'll keep you in my prayers. Or when we have mass in our chapel every Friday, or almost every Friday, that every time we're praying for our clients, for all of the people that come to our agency needing our assistance.
And praying for our staff and praying for our donors and all of the people that assist us in that work.
We kind of say in our institute, too, the Religious Sisters of Mercy, in our constitutions and our customs, it talks often about how every work, if it's to be truly a work of mercy, must be first a work of prayer. It's really that time with the Lord spent in prayer that gives us the grace that we need and being close to the Lord in the sacraments, that gives us the strength that we need to do the temporal works of mercy, to manifest that within the world.
KAR
So, so beautifully stated. I don't know if you knew this, Sister, but for many years I had a spiritual director who was a Religious Sister of Mercy. And I will always remember her telling her students and, and me in a particular way, that at the end of our lives, God will ask us one important question.
Were you merciful? And I just think you have expressed it so beautifully, and we are so fortunate and blessed to have you as part of the Catholic Charities network. We always conclude with the same question, which is, what is giving you hope as a leader working in the Catholic Charities network in this moment?
SMJK
I mean, it's just so providential. I recently am back in the office after being on retreat and at the motherhouse and, like a common thread of our formation this summer was about the indwelling of the Holy Trinity. And it sounds kind of high level in a way to say that what gives me hope in this moment is the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in my soul.
But truly, that is what is giving me hope. Through baptism, the Holy Trinity, God himself truly comes to dwell in our souls, lives in us, and is working in us, and we are working as members of the body of Christ, like, intimately connected, you know, as branches to the vine, as members of a body, like intimately connected in the life of Christ.
And it's just the sense that, like, we are never alone, not not even like on a natural level, like God gives us people, people to help us. But like, even when we're alone in our office and not working with anyone in that moment, like God is in us and working through us and inspiring in us good things and giving us the strength and the grace that we need to do the work that he wants us to do.
And for me, that is so hopeful because it's like, okay, I don't have to worry then, and I don't have to worry about what my seeming weaknesses are or my seeming inefficiencies. God is doing his work and like, fundamentally, I don't have to worry. I just do the best that I can to do what he's asking of me.
He knows my capabilities and my incapabilities. He's not worried about it. He could do it without me if he needed to. That I get to be about this work at all is already his gift. And just such a kindness that he allows me to participate in his work, but he doesn't need me, you know? So it's just like, I think, truly, that is what gives me hope.
Because you could get, otherwise, so discouraged that this funding is being cut or this obstacle seems to be in place or this, you know, we're getting nailed with all these criticisms or whatever it is, you could easily get discouraged. But if each day we can remember that God truly lives in us and is guiding us, then we have every reason to hope that the work we do is going to help accomplish his will.
KAR
Sister Marie Josepha, absolutely beautiful. We are never alone. Thank you so much for joining us today.
SMJK
Thank you so much for having me.